We talk about it, we hope it happens, we look for it. What does "Church Growth" mean to you?

I don't feel it is what the Church does, it is a reflection of what "we", not collectively, but individually, are doing to transform lives, and make a difference. Sorry to say it, although some beleive it, but the "Pastor" is not responsible for church growth directly. It is me, I, myself. I think it is a result of what individuals do, and reflected and observed in what we consider "church growth". Fritz

Of course one thing is the number of members but more importantly the number of people who attend the services. Since I'm always in the back of the church, I can usually see how many people are there. I like the days where I loose count. I am VERY happy to see that the Praise service is growing!

I think another very important measurement of growth is what we do outside of Sunday services. How active are we in the community? What kind of impact are we making? When people think South Jersey, they should think Mantua UMC.

So what do we do to get there?

Right on! There are several of the older generation (you define it, I'm not) that think the number of "Members" are important. They are usually over 55 or 60, and in their prime, membership was a big issue. Now, members are not the key, it is "Average Attendance", yep, you are right.

I think we lose much of the impact a church has on the community and on individuals by a lack of coordination and many, many missed opportunities for other areas of the church to use their talents and skills.

Let me see if I can provide an example. We take a food basket to a family (Outreach Job well done!). BUT, we don't do anything about informing the family in need about the Sunday School program for their children, and the VBS that is fast approaching.... It goes on and on... Efforts should be coordinated so the entire church will never miss an opportunity to help, inform or just to love. What do they say, the right hand does not necessarily know what the left hand is doing... Need two hands for a proper hug!

We have an absolutely wonderful church, and a great group of believers. We only need coordination and to focus like a laser on opportunities for witness.....

My focus is going to be helping put all the pieces together and be as efficient in love, hope and healing as we can be. That is what I feel my calling is!

Hi Fritz, I'd like to get into this conversation if I may. "Church Growth" has been a buzzword for membership drives for the past fifty years and Somewhere along the line it has gotten confused with what is really evangelism.

Usually it's at this point where people start to walk away from me but, I think we need to get back to the essence of what we're really called to do. I would be incredibly happy to have standing room only at the worship services on Sunday mornings. I would be happy to see the majority of those folks actively engaged in the programs and ministies of our congregation as well. It would be great to see our congregation actively involved in the surrounding community as well. Everyone inviting friends and family to join them in worship on Sunday mornings as well as joining them for fellowship opportunities during the week.

What would really get me excited however, would be that everyone who attends or visits would begin a life transforming journey of faith. You see the greatest church growth tool is the witness of a life transformed through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no program that can compare to a changed life. People notice things such as that and if our lives began to "bear fruit" (our saviors words) we'd really begin to see growth. Real growth with deep roots.

We need to challenge each other and encourage each other to mature in the faith. We really need to stop thinking of the church as a club or lodge and begin to think of it as something organic. The church is alive yet for years people have been treating the church as a thing, you know that building with the stained glass windows.

I hope this keeps the dialogue going. This could be very edifying.
Peace! Greg <><

Hey Greg. Anyone is welcome to join in and I’m glad to see a new point of view posted. Conversations such as this are EXACTLY what these forums are for. Thanks for joining in

Incidentally, I'd love to see SOMEONE start a YOTB thread (Hint Hint)

I agree with everything you said, (and usually do). I feel the "trick" as it were is to find a balance. Balance applies to ministry as much as it applies to life. After all, they should go hand-in-hand.

Too much Evangelism believe it or not can have a negative impact on God's family. If every time "they" see "us" coming they walk the other way, then what good are we doing? We wind up driving people away if we always preach to them. Yes some people get tired of church and preaching after awhile. After a time, people can feel force fed, or "Geez what does Joe want me to do now?". Along those same lines, and you and I have both been there, we get so much church on our plates that we can't possibly keep up with anything. We get frustrated, and our church family gets frustrated with us.

On the other hand, if we are just getting the people into the pews, and are only concerned about the numbers and are not ministering to them, well we won't keep them in the pews, much less the family very long. They will start to feel like, "what am I doing here anyway?" or “I came, I saw, now what?”

Along those same lines we can’t be overly concerned about the Church as a building either. If we do, there won’t be anyone left to use it and an empty church is useless. On the other hand, our building should stand out like a beacon to the community. It needs to be warn, clean and inviting. It should be “Mantua Central” and should have so much activity going on that we need to get the Mantua township police there to direct traffic.

So how do we find that balance? I for one am not the typical "evangelist". My gifts certainly do not include preaching and I'm not the type to dance in the isles (which is a great relief for those around me) and I can't carry a tune in a 50 gallon drum.

I AM a behind the scenes, support type person. Not quite administrator, but far from the lime light.

But I've learned at Mantua that that's OK. God's family needs all different types, Care givers, Ministers, Administrators, Supporters, etc. And we need to be respectful for each other's gifts and personal tastes. It's OK to be concerned and proud of the building with which we've had for so long. But we can't loose sight of what that building is there for.

That’s what 1 Corinthians 12 means to me, especially verse 1 which says ‘If the whole body were an eye, what part would do the hearing? If the whole were an ear, what part would exercise the sense of smell?’

(Wow. Did I really just quote Paul? I very seldom quote any part of the Bible that’s not written in red, and I feel Christians tend to take what Paul says a little too much like Gospel . But that’s a discussion for another time!)

In closing, I have to say that I truly thank God for people like you Greg, because you help us, the church (as in our family of Christ) keep that balance. It is a true joy to see you, on Sunday mornings. Especially on those days, where I’m just really not awake yet, or stressed out or not in the mood. You are so fired up for Christ that those around you can’t help but feel the Holy Spirit move within them.

The best sermons are lived not preached. That's what I was trying to say. Not everyone is what you would call an evangelist but, the greatest evengelism tool is and always has been the common believer. Living in the time that we do we tend to think of evangelism as a stadium event where hundreds answer the call to come forward and make a commitment to Christ. We think of Billy Graham as an evangelist and he is but most Christians don't begin their faith walk that way.

Most believers were introduced to Christ through a family member or a friend and sometimes through someone they vaguely know but realize that there is something different about them.

I believe that the balance you speak of is offering someone a life in Christ then inviting them to express that walk in a body of believers somewhere.

For years I've been fascinated by the growth of the early church. How could a "religion" that had no buildings, very little organization, no slick marketing ploys, disagreements on rituals and no professional clergy have such awesome impact and tremendous growth? They didn't attend seminars or run adds in the papers yet they grew and grew. What was it about them that made people want to become like them? Even when, and some would say because, they were persecuted the faith spread.

I think that the Church in the times we live in is going to revisit the early Church. I think that' it's going to become necessary to do so. The country we live in is not much different than First Century Corinth and believe it or not there are a lot more pagans around these days.

We have nothing to offer anyone except Jesus. There are whole industries built on involvement and to be honest people are looking for rest in these fast paced times. What better to offer them than the very rest that they desire.

I like that!



So true. Something we don't think about that often and should. More people are invited in by a person vs. just an inviting church. I can't remember the last time I just walked into a church off the street. It does happen and we should be prepared for it, just doesn't happen as often.



That's almost exactly what Karl's sermon was about this past Sunday. To prevent Colony Collapse Disorder or in our case Church Collapse Disorder, we need to do the Entry Level work AND the next level.
From Karl's Sermon:

"Must move beyond "entry" 2 the next level (it's fine 2 start @ entry level, but then it has 2 move 4wd)"



Please explain what you mean here? I think just this point will be a very interesting topic



AMEN!!!

I'll try to explain.

Corinth was a very important sea port. Because of it's location it was a center of trade in the region. There was a wealthy merchant class and many markets where just about everything could be purchased. The acquisition of wealth was the order of the day and there were opportunities to invest in money making endeavors.

People from all over the Roman Empire lived, traded and worked there. The people brought their gods and with the fortunes that were made many temples to these gods were erected. The population was polytheistic, unreligious and hedonistic. It was a pagan society.

America in this 21st century is very similar in attitudes. The only difference is that most Americans consider themselves religious.

A pagan is: (these are the definitions in my dictionaries) 1. nonreligious person; pantheist; heathen. 2 person following a polytheistic or pantheistic religion. 3 hedonist.

When I use the word pagan I refer to someone who worships created things rather than The Creator. Worshiping idols of wood, stone, gold, silver and precious stones. Some worship stars, the moon and even trees. You could even go as far as to say that there is the worship of wealth, celebrity, or that new Lexus or BMW. Obviously my definition is a lot broader that Websters but it does apply.

I hope that clears up any questions you have and I would love to continue this discussion.

WEll it is late and I am tired but I thought I would just add a cent or two. I worry sometimes that we become selective of who we "let" be part of our congregation. I can think of several times when people have come to our church who are a little different. Maybe with a mental health issue or just not in the same socio-economic sphere that most of us are in. I've noticed that they don't stay too long. Is it because we are not welcoming them in because they just don't fit right? Good thing Jesus didn't do that. He sat down and had dinner with those kinds of people. If we want to grow the church we have to be very careful not to exclude people that aren't just like us. Does this make any sense in the thread of the conversation?

Hello, I have been spying and reading and I just wanted to say that what you said above is 110% true. I was very lost when I first came to this church and it was Greg that approached me first and introduced himself to me with that fired up energy and I will never forget how God worked through Greg that day.
Maria